TS00: because sometimes I feel pretty alone in this wilderness. Such a man would admit every corrupt money scheme, every trap used to blackmail and extort, every wicked threat and retaliation against those who dared to object and every dollar put to personal wealth building rather than ministering to the lost and needy. at one time run an online poker site? I call it B.S. 5G, Closer Campaign. If it werent for the subject matter, it would have been rated X (violence) and denounced by Christians as Violence/Torture porn. John: When I now go to a church, I want to speak with elders. it has a b in it. He didnt know there were Wartburgers standing by who would get the last word! My new son-in-law is a United Methodist pastor. Heres hoping quotes work the same here as many other onlline sites. It is likely that he deliberately sought the chips he could cash in on anyone who might be in a position to spill the beans. In a statement written by church elders, the Chicago-area megachurch says they fired MacDonald for "engaging in conduct contrary and harmful to the best . (They had to turn away so many customers while the church buses pulled up singing hymns for what had effectively become sold-out private showings.). I will be praying for you. If you are insulted because of the name of Christ, you are blessed, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you. Bill Hybels, miracle seeker-driven leader, stands credibly accused of sexual harassment and molestation. so you dont. You were part of promoting that brand, right? In the military, the largest combat unit in which the commander leads from the front is the battalion, about 300-400 combat troops. Further, a cental message of the Bible, as I learned over many, many years, is that mankind is fallen, and religious leaders/system are fallen, in many ways more fallen than the secular/hunanistic world that so many religous leaders rail against. The present situation has for me the feel of exile and diaspora in the intertestamental period. Probably took over where my favorite Vietnamese restaurant used to be. The vast majority of those martyred died for the sake of rejecting false authority and false teaching. When I first started reading your comment I thought it was serious and that I would have to redact the tweet. Our inaugural ministry in the heart of Chicago began on September 20, 2009, with a mobile campus that met for worship on Sunday nights at a school in Wicker Park. A narcissist is very good at manipulating people, and very patient. I didnt want these points to go unmade. They are set in place as the shepherds of Gods people, and thus are the care takers of the spiritual needs of the church. A person who thinks they are qualified, is someone who may need to take some time to discern whether thats true. im so glad i resisted & refused all the pressure the christian community put on everyone concerning that film. honest, at personal cost. All three of those aspects are absent from the biblical directives in providing care and oversight to Gods children. As a Christian, how could they do otherwise? Sadly, I have yet to see even one of these elders or executive staff members repent in a productive, redemptive manner. The famous TV series director is a prominent name in the entertainment industry. The whole cycle, from start to implosion and disbanding the church, was about five years. The apostles counted that an honor. I guess the other 25% are hoping to get some plum positions. elastigirl: i take no more stock in what paul thinks than i do in what i think. There are other places for the truly repentant to serve in the church. Not only were the target audience all Christians (from the above buyouts), the would-be Soul-Winners went into shock after the intensity of the showing. Not for money or fame but just because you want to show them love. The lampstand was removed a long time ago. I am willing to bet that MacDonald has been on the horn with Driscoll to see how he transitioned to Scottsdale after Mars Hill imploded. VCB became Vertical Worship and currently has more than 20 songs in the CCLIs Top 500 Songs Sung in US Churches, including Open Up the Heavens and Yes, I Will.. Vietnamese cuisine is good! That was all it was intended to be. a lover of what is good The 7 elders below were given an opportunity to step down and avoid this lawsuit. As the Lord continued to increase our congregation in depth and number, we outgrew the Rolling Meadows Campus. Certainly! After seven years, the growing congregation of 500 raised funds in six weeks to secure a former warehouse at 800 S Rohlwing Road in Rolling Meadows. He was a cynical grandstands and shameless self-promoter. He relocated here from another state to marry my daughter, and pastors a small mainstream church that has been struggling to keep its doors open the past few years. They are crumbling under their current debt load that FRED saddled them with; still he brags. Bridget: I dont know, Ken. When I started diving into church history I was hoping and expecting to find an early church that looked like small home groups with decentralized leadership. It was not just Jmac who was enriching himself. I am generally ignorant regarding legal or business matters, but isnt this illegal? Elder Dan George corralled the statements from the authors and distributed to the other Elders. If even one little thing God has brought me through can help someone else, I am exceeding glad. Noevangelical: So do you think this is something like Stockholm Syndrome? I will reflect on your honesty and embrace the possibilities. none of that matters now. Today Harvest Bible Chapel is a family of Christ-adoring worshipers on multiple campuses throughout Chicagoland. Those who did not succumb were pushed out. . Check out the Stronger Mens Conference Yep, 90-days would have been about the right time to bail out before their resume became tainted. Im also going to be annoyed if James McDonald pulls a Mark Driscoll and starts up a new church. It is not elaborate but adequate for what we seek to do for Gods Kingdom. If they couldnt get it right after three years of intensive time with Jesus, what chance do we have? -, Im certainly not an Apostle chosen by the hand of Jesus as Paul was nor a prophet, or a son of a prophet. There does seem to be something in Dallass attitude of a disregard for those who donated the hundreds of millions to make the whole Harvest phenomenon work. Jenkins: Yeah, I did the original Christmas short solely as something for my church's Christmas Eve service [said church being Harvest Bible Chapel in Chicago]. One can attempt to form a very egalitarian group where no one is in charge, but it only works until a dysfunctional person makes a power grab. incur Gods wrath, Guys like you have no fear of God, and this is how this mess happened in the first place. But that tends to require some kind of a hierarchy where some subset of the larger group comes up with stated or unstated norms and consequences for violating the norms. Here is a short article describing the NT words used for the offices: Runnin bear dove in the water, little white dove did the same But, assuming Paul would be cheering them on nevertheless, that opens up a door for whoever to bring in whatever in attempts to do church (and thats exactly what we have in America). Thing is, if it were Bill MacDonald, a little-known pastor of a tiny church from Podunk, Alabama, and he and his wife were having marital troubles that didnt involve his abuse of others, it likely wouldnt be anyones business but his close friends and perhaps his little church. Me too, back when I was in the last Bible Church. Currently, the Dallas Jenkins net worth is $1.5 million. The mega-masters vocalize Jesus occasionally and even talk about Him from a gospel vantage point. If they depend entirely on the good will or humility of the elder-elects themselves and (no-teeth-allowed, no mechanism for) church members having a say? For one of his theatrical performances at HBC shortly before his demise, JMac posed as a homeless man to make a sermon point I suppose he was so relevant, you know. True repentance requires owning up to all you have done, letting the light of truth in to the dark closets that have been hiding the wicked deeds of the past. I believe he also was something of an unwitting prophet, possibly used by the Lord Himself, to reflect a mirror back at U.S. Christendom. I implore you to keep a watchful eye on those who cause trouble and make difficulties among you, in plain opposition to the teaching you have been given, and steer clear of them. That sadness is so deep. After a long season of fasting and prayer, in 2003 we were given the Elgin Campus. David: Fred Adams former Harvest CFO has a serious gambling addiction. Ken F (aka Tweed): LET EVERYONE REVERE THE DEACONS AS JESUS CHRIST, THE BISHOP AS THE IMAGE OF THE FATHER, AND THE PRESBYTERS AS THE SENATE OF GOD AND THE ASSEMBLY OF THE APOSTLES. of seeing the beauty of the kindness of strangers, the beauty of love and faithfulness, of integrity at personal cost demonstrated by human beings everywhere. you mentioned earlier, You dont have to watch a person for very long to discern whether that person is a grace filled believer or not. Dallas Jenkins, . Those extra-Biblical portions comprise 95% of what's been in the show thus far, according to Jenkins, but that and everything else is still run through a proofing process involving scholars of the Bible and people in full-time ministry to make sure it is in harmony with what's in Scripture. In March of 2000, Harvest Bible Chapel adopted the mission to establish Gospel-believing, Bible-teaching churches. Known for its racial and economic diversity, the congregation moved into a converted warehouse in Rolling Meadows, Illinois, in 1995. dee: You chose to serve in a church with incredibly stupid, unbiblical and mean people in charge. Scott G Winterton, Deseret News. As another new, unforeseen door opened to bring Harvest to the Aurora area, 200 people from the Elgin Campus were sent south, opening as the Aurora Campus on January 23, 2011. Harvest Christian Academy (HCA) is a private school for students in preschool through grade 12 founded by Harvest Bible Chapel. EXACTLY the same as at Willow Creek Community Church. gentle Craig French: Thanks for confirming the authenticity of the content, Dallas. not violent But if it comes to that you can sit them down and model thankfulness that they and you suffer together for the name of Christ. Maybe we should have been, and still should be, picketing in front of Driscolls new church, handing out pamphlets including some of his more famous woman-degrading statements? Thus, I try to insert IMO where applicable. While I am glad that he came here to confirm the authenticity of the letter, your attitude still shows that you have a long ways to go towards producing fruit that actually looks like repentance. Every jot and every tittle is just as if the Almighty is still thundering out of Horeb through Paul. This will always happen, there is no way to avoid it. MacDonald may join him next year on the Stronger Men circuit. Hundreds of thousands of innocent Christians will be abused UNLESS men and women of integrity stand up and shine the light of truth on Harvest Bible Chapels dirty deeds done in darkness. Cool bands, espresso coffee, relevant sermons, fun and fellowship, etc. The bit about only a unanimous vote of their executive council being able to remove the lead pastor theres a recipe for success when grievous wolves are not unexpected. Having experienced the unique life-changing work that God does when we interrupt our typical routines, our leaders began searching the Midwest for land suitable toward building a camp, or property with an existing camp. Concerned for the vulnerable animals safety, he left his own gun by its side. EPISKOPOS, translated in English is an overseer or a bishop. Study all 66 books of the Bible at Dallas Theological Seminary. I believe that if I hadnt been a strong donor, I would not have been considered and wouldnt have vaulted through Harvest leadership over more deserving peers. We see it mentioned on a few occasions in Scripture where elders were appointed in every city. . The laity has a huge role in keeping leaders in check, at least theoretically. Id say largely because the leaders themselves have been told to believe this. Turning a blind eye was a full failure. If all this was that important to the leaders they would have been apoplectic at what they witnessed from JM. You dont even need a Pastor/Dictator at the peak for things to go sour. im proud to be human. If people develop real relationships, they might start talking and could stand up against the abuse. one who rules his own house well Truth is real. It is unwise, and unsafe to loyally declare, But I know and love so and so. Sadly, clever manipulators can deceive very well. Whose job is the ministry? There are about 4 dozen Harvest execs & elders moving on to other ministries and the corruption runs so deep theres no chance they wont be infecting every ministry they touch going forward. God bless. He and James wanted newer, better buildings now, not when the flock could afford them. It seems to me that there is a serious idolatry issue at HBC. We should not be surprised that the battle between the false and the true rages on, and should continue to cling to the true, whatever the cost. Exactly what were people afraid of? It looks like a church with terminal stage 4 cancer. A friend became nearly apoplectic when I tried to explain this. and purportedly, eternity depends on each individual institution and the collective one. .. I never thought I would say such a thing about a church plant but, these young reformers are more about planting reformed theology, rather than Gospel churches. We all are that person which is why we still need Jesus daily to save us from our continuing sin patterns in our life. The key is to have a system where checks and balances are in place. So, so much we dont know. Man if you are looking for a physical church to be perfected and wholly sanctified, by mere men, you will be disalusioned. You have done some confession, but in private only. I only point out that the historical evidence is not what we protestants want it to be. Women, you're invited to the Harvest Women's Conference, Women on Mission: Set Apart on Saturday, June 3. The thought has come to me again and again (others have expressed similar views) that the Church seems to recapitulate (history rhyming if not repeating exactly) Old Israel. We only saw the one tomb. After two years of searching without success, a generous supporter offered Harvest her property650 beautiful, wooded acres on a lake in Newaygo, Michiganand Camp Harvest was launched on July 28, 2002. Therefore, churches today need to endeavour to attain a point where they are able to have elders. TS00: Agreed. About a year ago, Jenkins stepped off the Moody Board of Trustees. God doesnt need Harvest and in fact Id be willing to say the spirit of Jezebel has been leading that place since the early 2000s. hospitable In 2012, after several decades of developing the worship culture at Harvest, the Vertical Church Band was born. Bidding me still to fight on. Then add in the many who are in it for whatever personal gain they covet . I do know from reading the Acts of Perpetua and Felicity (said to have been written in 203) that church leaders argued with each other. not quarrelsome We all know that Gateways Crisis Manager Lawrence Swicegood is helming the 2020 Committee, so this is not surprising. I dont see how you could get any further from the mark in your comment. of good testimony with those who are outside (non-Christian) Crony to cronyand I hear you and see it all the timebut to me? having faithful children That included giving James $20K-$30K a MONTH to spend just on T&E. Maybe you should have considered the consequences of your actions, or inaction, before you decided to hitch your wagon to JM. I figure whenever Paul was speaking to us through Scripture, he was drawing from his personal knowledge of the Kingdom of God rather than what he thought about it. If you truly believed your comment you would not have posted it. Yet the first line in that post was that Dee would not allow comments. Nice job. Church history is full of documentation on Mark Driscolls misbehavings, but that bad-boy legacy didnt stop him from launching his current ministry in Arizona. Didnt Paul rejoice from prison that the gospel was preached, whether from false motives or true? If Paul was a rogue usurper, Luke was the co-conspirator who legitimized the takeover. Max, I love you. Having read the explanations of some of the associates and enablers who have pulled away from HBC, this does seem to have been part of why they put up with the wrongness coming from the top. We celebrated Gods blessing of 100 church plants in just 14 years in 2014. I certainly have my doubts that Paul would be rejoicing over the likes of MacDonald, Hybels, Driscoll, and countless others who have taken advantage of the Body of Christ over the last 2,000 years. God put you there, who are you to take yourself out? This place needs to be shut down. Another typo I meant Peter and Paul. What we have is countless people cutting him some slack . able to teach Looking forward to the recording of a worship night on Thursday, March 2. Now, not when the flock could afford them that brand, right and oversight to children! 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